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Episode #521 - Retirement Plan Live: Mature Marriage - Mary’s Story
Roger: This show is part of the Retirement Podcast Network. A friend and I were taking a walk the other day, discussing how difficult it is to have really good planning meetings, whether you're single or married, and I think that's going to be an interesting thread that we pull in this month's Retirement Plan Live.
Welcome to the Retirement Answer Man show.
Roger Whitney here. This is the show dedicated to helping you not just surviving retirement but leaning in and doing the work to really rock retirement.
It can be really hard to have a productive meeting. If you're doing a planning meeting by yourself, you're inside your own head and it's hard to have perspective.
If you have a husband or a wife, it can be hard to have productive conversations for a variety of reasons. In this month's Retirement Plan Live case study, I think we're going to see this thread. We're going to meet Mary today, where her and her husband are coming together and trying to have productive meetings later in life, and it can be just as hard for them. I think this is going to be an interesting thread to explore this entire month.
Today we're going to meet Mary and hear about her backstory, what she's excited about, what challenges she's facing in a middle-aged marriage, we'll say, and then next week, we're going to bring them both together and have a discussion around their values and joint goals.
A BIT OF HOUSEKEEPING
Before we meet Mary, we're going to go do some housekeeping related to some past episodes and talk about books I read in December, et cetera, and then we're going to have Kevin Lyles from the Rock Retirement Club, coach, and I talk about Unretirement why some people decide to unretire. That's the agenda for today so let's work through this.
You may have noticed at the beginning of the show that we are now a proud member of the retirement Podcast Network and I wanted to let you know what that was I'm a co-founder of the network along with a number of retirement planner friends that you can find at retirementpodcastnetwork.com.
Now, why did we create this? What is this project? Well, we wanted to create a safe place for you to find quality retirement resources. It's a very noisy world out there with the intent that it can be a very useful resource for you to be able to rock retirement and the Retirement Podcast Network is built off of quality podcasts of practicing planners that adhere to a fiduciary standard.
These are people that are doing the things that they talk about every day in their practice, that have podcasts that are long running, highly rated, they produce consistent content, and they all have a service spirit. So, we're bringing all of that together under the umbrella of Retirement Podcast Network.
Then in addition to that, we're starting to organize resources for you around topics. For example, we have one place where you can go to long term care and find episodes from a number of podcasts in the network and out. as well as articles and videos and resources on that specific topic. Then we're going to move to Roth conversions and income strategies and many more areas to come up with the idea of being useful to you in this very crowded world. So, if you want to learn more about that, you can go to retirementpodcastnetwork.com.
All right, next is books I read in December. It was a fiction month in December. I read two books by the same author, Patrick Rothfuss. The Name of the Wind was the first book, and then the sequel was The Wise Man's Fear, and evidently, there's a third coming out. This was a book that my son challenged me to read. He is a ferocious reader, just like my daughter and my wife. He loves these books.
I said, okay, I'll read this one, but then I have to pick one for you to read. I have yet to name this book for Spencer, but I like these books. It's about a young man who is trying to find his way in the world. He goes to a university to learn skills, we'll call it magic, and then runs into various challenges, etc. They're a lot of fun to read. I enjoy them. I can't wait for the third one to come out. I'm glad Spencer challenged me to read it.
The third book I read, and this was via audio, was One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest by Ken Kesey. Wow, is all I have to say about this book. I've seen the movie back in 1975 that came out with Jack Nicholson. Wow, this is an amazing book. Wonderful story. Really, gripping story, wonderfully written, very snappy.
I love the snappiness of the writer, and in this case, it was Narrated by John C. Reilly, who is in Talladega Nights and Step Brothers. He does an amazing job from a narration standpoint, but it's a powerful story and Ken Kesey, my understanding was he was a bohemian. Type of radical in the 60s and 70s.
I think while he was writing this book, he participated in the CIA finance studies on hallucinogenic drugs like LSD, etc. The thread that I pulled from this book was the story was really about the chief, the big Native American man in the story. Not so much McMurphy, who Jack Nicholson played in the story.
He was a character, but it was really about the chief, and his journey to becoming big again, that was the thread that I pulled and has themes around Nurse Ratchet and the rules and the thugs and the drugs that they use to make the patients conform. McMurphy comes in and disrupts a lot of that, and there's a battle between his individualistic attitude and the authoritative attitude of Nurse Ratchet in the system.
The real winner out of this becomes the Chief and others in the ward becoming big again and owning who they are. There's a lot of period language that doesn't really float nowadays, for a lot of good reasons. Be aware of that, but it's an amazing book. I really, really enjoyed it. Best book I read all year.
Those are the books I read in December in 2024. I'm going to try to focus more on literature. I don't know what that means. What's the difference between fiction and literature? I guess I'm going to find that out. That was a suggestion actually from a listener to get a lot of themes found in nonfiction books, but in a much more elegant way. I'm going to really try to focus on really amazing writers. So that's going to be fun.
All right. Now some cleanup feedback. The episode we did it was episode 518 that was released on the 20th of December. One was an error I made when talking to the listener who was deciding whether to sell their home or turn it into a rental. I had said that the capital gain exclusion on the home sale was 125, 000 for a single or 250, 000 for married.
It's actually double that. It's 250, 000 for a single person, 500, 000 for a married couple, assuming you lived in it for within two years. Had a few listeners point that out. I want to thank you for pointing that out and I wanted to set the record straight. I know why that happened and we have so much going on today. I'm going to save that for another time, but it had to do with some protocols, which are very helpful or algorithms that broke down, but wanted to make sure I corrected that.
Then second, we had Rojo who wanted some suggestions on what he should be doing differently to be able to get to a retirement date. I think it was age 60 while he's still dealing with the fact that his wife has health issues, he outlined a lot of the amazing work that he's doing, saving already. I shared my thoughts on that episode, but I also asked you to share some of your wisdom. So, I thought I'd share a few pieces of wisdom that we had sent to us.
Our first bit of feedback and advice came from Mark and he said,
"Interesting you asked for listener feedback, can't recall being asked before."
Well, walk of the wise become wise Mark. He said the feedback that I provided was spot on and his feedback was simply assuming his four percent withdrawal on 2. 6 million has not accounted for the significant income those assets can provide. He would extract about 78, 000 a year at a 3 percent rate, which would likely be achieved with a blend of U. S. stocks.
That is true, Mark. The difficulty with that, though, is the 4 percent studies that created that rule of thumb assume a reinvestment of those dividends and or interests. So, you get that compounding effect. If you start to draw that out, if you look over a long period of time, if you don't do reinvestment, the average rate of return drops pretty significantly over time.
That could be problematic, but you're right. You could create a lot of income off of a portfolio like that, and by your estimation, it would cover about 80 percent of his expenses, not including social security, et cetera. Don't discount the fact that, hey, you might be able to generate a lot of income to cover your expenses.
You also said that,
"It sounds like you're extremely well prepared, and turning to the family probably is the best thing to do."
Essentially, don't get too caught up in the finances. Since you're doing so much more, it's easy to forget. Well, hey, what's the point of all of this? Let me turn to my family a little bit. So good feedback, Mark.
Brad had a couple of ideas. He said,
"Number one is to figure out what your social security benefit's likely to be, incorporate that income into your plan. It's likely to cover a significant portion of your projected needs, especially if you have yours and the spousal benefit."
Brad also suggested to look into an HSA or a health savings account if you're eligible.
"Sounds like your family may have above average medical expenses, but it might make sense to invest some of that 20 percent into your Roth into an HSA for additional tax savings."
His third suggestion, Brad said,
"Consider investing a portion of your side hustle money into an after-tax brokerage account where you can park cash in a money market for unexpected expenses."
Then fourthly,
"Try to relax and enjoy life with your family now. I know as a provider, it's easy to focus on solving the problems we anticipate around the corner, but life is often shorter than expected, and regret can be heavy. Merry Christmas."
It is a balancing act, so I think that's very wise, Brad. Thank you.
Then our last comment, and this is from someone I actually know, says,
"He does not state the seriousness of his wife's health issues. However, if it may shorten her potential lifespan that I would plan to do more with her and accept the fact that I might have to work a bit longer in the future.
We are not guaranteed tomorrow working hard. towards a retirement at the expense of enjoying your loved ones now may lead to future regret."
That was from Brian. I actually do have a couple more. That is a balance. We tend to think of retirement as this long, arduous trek up a mountain that we must summit before we can have the joy of completion and happiness.
I think it's much healthier to, and I think this is Brian's point, much healthier to think of it as a journey that you're supposed to enjoy along the way. There is no "there" to get to. There is no peak. It's a journey. That's a struggle we all have.
Another suggestion is, I think this is from Kimmy. Yeah, it is from Kimmy. I know Kimmy. She's an extraordinary lady.
"My initial thought is, are you doing too much? You could consider living at a slower pace and working longer in a way that gives you more free time. Tomorrow isn't promised to anyone. It sounds like you are diligently planning your future, but don't miss your life today.
Here are a couple levers you could consider making your money last as long as your desires. Evaluate your lifestyle. Could you live in a less expensive area or a smaller house? Consider part time work, and it sounds like you're doing some side hustle."
Then she shared a question she often asks her clients.
"Are you having fun?"
That seems to be forgotten frequently, Kimmy says. Wonderful advice, and Kimmy is a wise lady.
One last comment, just to put a cherry on top of this for Rojo and any of us that are noodling on this subject.
This listener says, "
I have a mug that says life is about moments, not milestones.
Rojo, you are doing everything right, but are you taking enough moments? I understand the big push to get to the end goal. Great job. Now find ways to lighten up and go spend time with your family and doing something you love.
My husband and I worked hard for someday. Unfortunately, and not because he was not the healthiest guy around, we never got to realize our someday dreams as he passed away just before retirement. I wish we would have spent more money doing those dreams along the way.
Is there a beach you always wanted to visit? Is there a family vacation you could take before your kids get out there and have full time partners and jobs? Take time for those dreams now. Wishing you special memories."
Hopefully Rojo you're listening to this and others that are on this journey can heed that advice.
All right, two more things, little announcements and then we're going to go meet Mary.
Number one is, it’s 2024 and we have capacity to accept clients in our private practice at Agile Retirement Management.
You can go to retireagile.com and there's a work with us button if you have an interest in exploring that.
Number two is Make sure you go to livewithroger.com and sign up for our results webinar where we're going to have Mark and Mary live on February 1st to bring all of this together to try to help them merge their finances and their vision and have better conversations around planning you can go to livewithroger.com to register for that.
With that, let's go meet Mary.
MEET MARY
So here we are with Mary. How are you doing, Mary?
Mary: I'm doing well, Roger. How are you doing?
Roger: Good. We got to hear from Mark last week, and we're basically going to talk about the same things, but from your perspective, how's that sound?
Mary: Perfect. Thank you. Perfect.
Roger: One thing, I don't think I asked Mark this, but I was curious, what motivated you to volunteer for this and feel comfortable doing this?
I'm just curious.
Mary: It was actually Mark's suggestion. He has been a longtime follower of yours and he came home one evening from work and said that you were going to be doing a show about a newly married couple in there later in life and that had financial differences of opinion and Mark and I had very serious differences of opinion.
We're both in our fifties, 56, and he thought it would be a really good thing as did I, because I think we just don't necessarily agree on some of the financial things. So, we thought that maybe you could help us understand our finances and understand how we can work together and help us with that.
Roger: For sure. We'll do our best. That's pretty brave considering you're not familiar with me and what I do.
Mary: Gives you a pretty good idea of the fact that we have some very serious differences in our finances and so I thought yes, we absolutely need this.
We've been married for a year, a little over a year, October 8th of 2022, we got married and really since then we've discovered that we've had differences of opinion. So yeah.
Roger: So, tell me a little bit about Mary.
Mary: Yes. So, I'm originally from the East coast and moved out to the Northwest in '87. A long time ago, I have one son and he's now in his late twenties and I was never married before and have the support of my family, have a wonderful, wonderful family that I'm very, very close with.
I've always really handled my finances by myself. Never have had to ask to do anything at all or go on a trip or have that conversation, I think that people that are married, I'm learning, have to have when you want to purchase something or do something that's over a certain amount and things like that.
I am in the healthcare field and I've grown my career over the last Gosh, started in the healthcare field when I was 18 years old and I'm now an executive director for a pretty big organization and have a lot of responsibilities.
Roger: You've been autonomous all of your life.
Mary: Yes. Yes, all my life.
Roger: Okay.
Mary: Even in the relationships that I was in, we never combined money.
Roger: Right. Okay. Okay, and then how did you and Mark meet?
Mary: We actually met online.
Roger: Okay. Did you click on him? Did he click on you? I don't know how that works.
Mary: It's funny that you asked because I was thinking that I don't, I honestly don't remember.
I'm positive he would have clicked on me, right? It wasn't me clicking on him. I honestly don't remember who did what, and we went to dinner.
Roger: I remember he said that you required that you have a phone conversation first.
Mary: Absolutely. Absolutely. It was so odd to me because he's not very much of a phone person.
Well, first of all, like, I'm in my pajamas most nights at 8 o'clock. I thought, if I'm going out on a date, it has to be really, it has to be somebody that I actually feel like I'm going to have a good conversation with at least.
Roger: What was it that made you feel attracted or safe or okay, I could go on a date with this guy?
Mary: I think we have a lot of similarities being that we're both from the East Coast. We’re actually both of the same ethnic group. I'm Italian and Irish, and so is he. I resonated with just that East Coast sort of conversation. He seemed kind and he seemed nice and he seemed intelligent. So, I thought, okay, I'll get in the car and drive downtown for dinner.
So, I don't know if he told you this, but he picked a place downtown that I also can't stand for parking reasons. There's no parking space ever. You have to park miles away or get really, really lucky. Yeah, there must have been something in that phone conversation because I even agreed to go there, and I actually got parking right up front. I don't know how that happened.
Roger: There you go. See it was okay. Now prior to dating him and I’m curious because I’ve never done any of this and I’ve been married 33 years.
Mary: You don't want to, it's not fun.
Roger: Any advice for someone that at our stage in life, I'm 56 too, has to navigate this because they want some, even if it's just companionship, any tips from your experience?
Mary: Gosh, I think definitely have that phone call. You can tell a lot from a phone call. You can tell if you want to meet that person pretty quickly within the first couple of minutes.
It's very difficult to navigate it. I mean, I think the people that actually meet and end up getting married are few and far between, I guess, just go with your instinct on it.
Roger: It's hard taking, you know, having to even go through the process. I mean, it's easier just to hang out at the house and not worry about it.
Mary: It was difficult. It's a lot of effort, right? I mean, you have to, especially here, I mean, it's a lot of effort. Like you have to, you're done with work, you're exhausted, but now you have to sort of put on your best face and you have to be in a good mood and you have to be happy and you have to drive somewhere, which I work from home, so me driving, you can hear is kind of a current theme. I don't like to drive anywhere, and so it's a lot. If you're looking for companionship, if you're looking for a partner in life, it is one way that you can meet people.
Roger: So, you meet, you go on a date and then I think I recall him saying that then you went on a walk.
Mary: We went on a walk. He asked me if I, after dinner, he asked me if I wanted to go, it was like a little canal area and asked if I wanted to go for a walk. Of course, I said yes. I had to go change my shoes actually because I had heels on, so I don't know if he told you that. I always have extra shoes in my car. I'm a big-time hiker and so I said, okay, and my car happened to be right. I actually got a good spot so I was able to go and change my shoes.
Roger: How long did you date for?
Mary: We met in May. I would say one thing about Mark is that he is much better with dates and timeframes and things like that then I am. He's very analytical and his mind thinks very linear and I am the opposite.
My mind thinks in a circle, very creative, which helps me. I do a lot of strategy work in the healthcare field. You know, I'm an Aquarian. I think we're kind of like very creative people, but we met in May and then we got married in October of 2022.
Roger: Yeah. Okay, so did you ask him? How did that work?
Mary: Oh, no, he asked me. I'm pretty old fashioned like that, and I've never been married. I've never really desired to be married.
Roger: Well, this is a big surprise for you. You know, never been married.
Mary: Wasn't looking to be married.
Roger: Why did you say yes? I'm curious.
Mary: Well, that's a good question. He's a very kind person, and he was very different than anybody else that I had ever dated before.
I think I am very different than anybody that he's ever dated before. We both had a lot in common. We love to travel, love to travel. We love to hike. We love the outdoors. As we continue to date, I mean, of course, then the idea of getting married opened up to me, but it was not ever my first intent at all.
No, he actually, I was in St. Lucia. It's funny because at some point I was like, well, is he ever going to propose to me? What's happening here? But I went away with some friends to St. Lucia for a week for a vacation. While I was away, if somebody has never been married, you sort of want that romance to happen in the proposal and things like that.
Right. So, and just the old fashioned-ness and I'm very close with my son, very, very close with my son. He's my only child. He is my world.
Roger: Mark met your son.
Mary: Definitely. I mean, we met each other's families, in fact. My family flew out here and everybody had met at different times. But so, when I was in St. Lucia, Mark took my son out to have bagels and asked him, you know, told him he wanted to propose to me. And my father has passed away, so there was not the ability to ask my father, or I'm sure that he would have asked him as well, and asked Joseph. Joseph, of course, was very happy and really loved Mark and so just was very happy for both of us.
Then I came back from St. Lucia and I still didn't know, I think it was a couple of weeks after that, that he asked me, it was, oh, you know what? It was on the year anniversary that we had met because we went to the same restaurant.
Roger: Okay.
Mary: We went to the same restaurant. We took the same walk.
Roger: Oh, he mentioned that. he mentioned that. So now that you're married, you're into it. We're going to get to the challenges because I know that's a thing that we're going to have a whole episode on just how we manage the money side of it and the last of this series.
What are your aspirations for the two of you now that you're married?
Mary: Yeah. I think one of the biggest things and why I'm glad that we're doing this. And I think this has to happen for many couples. We cannot be the only couple that are going through financial differences, which cause significant issues in a marriage is what I'm learning.
My aspirations are that we can connect. We don't have to agree on everything. I'm perfectly fine with that and more will we, I mean, I don't want that, but I do want to be able to have conversations that don't turn into disagreements and resentment. That's one of the biggest aspirations and be able to understand what we want to do for retirement, understand, do we have the money to retire?
What does that look like? Really it is all mainly financial. I think, again, I think that most couples probably suffer, unfortunately, the same sort of experience where you just can't see eye to eye.
The second thing that I really would love is to be able to get to a place, and again, we're just married a year, right? When we weren't married, we didn't combine money. So ironically, we had no issues about money when we were dating. I mean, it was fantastic, right? And we were just doing our thing and everything was great.
Then as soon as we got married, yeah, Mark wanted to combine incomes, and I said, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. No, we'll split everything down the middle and I'll take my money and you can take your money. So, it was a shock right away. But anyway, one of the other things that I would like to get to be to not have to talk about money all the time because it feels like in this new marriage, all we talk about is money.
You can imagine that's not fun to do that all the time. So, to get to a place where we understand and we both agree, and we then follow through with, if we say this is how much we're going to spend, then we follow through with that. I am extremely excited about the opportunity to retire. I've actually had a paper route when I was in the fifth grade, so however old you are in the fifth grade, I've been working since then and I've always had some kind of a job.
I do have a very stressful, I feel, position. I have four departments, 36 people that report to me, and just a lot going on in the healthcare industry. So, I'm ready to retire. Our ideas of retiring at different ages are different. He wants to retire in five years. I would like to retire tomorrow. So, if we can make that happen, that's an aspiration.
Roger: We'll get to the goal part in our next conversation with the two of you, actually. So, what I heard was aspirational wise that you two, you really enjoy being with Mark and it's just that the money part of it has, it's so acute that it feels like this is, it poisons everything because there's this different philosophy that you can't get around it just to enjoy each other. It's not compartmental.
Mary: Yes. It was kind of shocking, quite frankly. It's a bit shocking when all of a sudden you realize, Oh my gosh, we're not on the same page. Scary also, because you want to be on the same page and you don't want something like finances to affect a relationship. So, when it starts to happen, you don't know how to get past that or have those discussions with everybody feeling defensive or bad about it. It's really not a fun place to be in all honesty.
I would like to get back to how we should be.
Roger: Oh, after talking to both of you together and now individually, I mean, you two are very. Intelligent strong worldly people.
Mary: That's the other problem. Although I'm more intelligent, stronger. Well, no, I'm just kidding.
Roger: Yet in hindsight, some of these conversations probably should have happened before.
Mary: Well, and I actually asked for that, Roger. So, I did say because I do know that finances when I was growing up, I don't know how this happened, but my mother used to say finances are one of the number one reasons why people get divorced. It is true. So, knowing that I was not ever combined incomes in my life, when Mark said, Hey, you know, when we get married, we're going to combine incomes. We had many conversations prior to actually getting married. I said, no. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I called my mother, I called my sister, I'm like, no, no, no.
Roger: So, it was never really resolved. You had them and then you knew that you were conflicted, but it was never resolved.
Mary: No. I actually had asked, I said, we need to talk to somebody. We need to talk to somebody about finances so that, because I also think that finances are, it's not really about money at times. Finances are a very emotional thing for people. I think that that's an aspect that many don't, everybody probably understands that, but they may not take that into account when they're thinking about money. I say that because as a single mom, money was very important to me, and to be able to put food on the table for my son and make sure that he had the same things that he needed or had the things that he needed, that he was able to go on vacations, that he was able to go back east and see his niece, his cousins and spend time with family.
My son watched that. I think that we transfer issues with money generationally, and I won't go into the whole back story of my mom with money.
Roger: I can relate to this. I had a single mom who had three children. There's a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure.
Mary: You don't want to have a thought of having lack because lack, your thoughts create your reality, right? If you're constantly in a state of lack, feeling of lack, that's what you're going to have.
Even so, the idea of sharing money was very scary for me and I did not want to do it. We needed to talk to somebody about this, but we didn't and now here we are. Now we have you.
Roger: Oh, well, I'm not a counselor.
Mary: By the end of this, Roger, you will be a counselor. Trust me.
Roger: Oh boy. Oh boy.
I think another part of it, and I actually said this to Mark is when it comes to finances, you've been married a year. If it's not said in the back of mind, if this doesn't work, I still have to be okay. That is a natural feeling and he knows that.
I mean, there are layers here just because of where the two of you were at.
Now you made a comment earlier that I want to hit on. So, I think we actually got some of the aspirations for you. I just want to get this money thing figured out so we can actually enjoy each other. Absent money, we have the same values. We want the same things in retirement. We want the same things in our life. It's just this big, nasty hairball of money discussion sitting in the middle of us.
Mary: True. Yes. Yep. What the other thing I'm learning too is that there are you know, if he wants to go do something but it costs a lot of money let's say and I say no I don't agree with that because he also has had autonomy of his money in his previous marriages and so you're really taking two people who have never had to ask permission to do anything, right?
Which is a fantastic place to be. I don't, now I'm thinking, why did I get married? I did enjoy that. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Then If he wants to do something, he's sort of used to just doing it, and so am I. So, if I say no, it's an issue for him. I mean, because we do like the same things, it's true, but not all of the same things. So that's become an interesting dynamic as well saying, well, it's my money. I've earned my money in the past. 40 years you haven't been here and it's my money. I can take it.
There is a lot of dynamics involved.
Roger: Now, I think the last challenge that we'll talk about now, and then what we're going to do going forward, Mary, is the rest of the conversations actually will be with all three of them and we're going to talk about what our goals are for retirement.
Mary: Okay.
Roger: Then we're going to talk about what resources we each have for retirement, yours and his that are separate.
Mary: Yep.
Roger: Then the last conversation is going to be around where are the boundaries. We're going to see if we can untangle this hairball or at least give you a pathway to have better conversations to untangle this hairball.
I think the last thing I want to talk about today is he mentioned it and you mentioned it. He's an aeronautical engineer. He thinks in a straight line. He even admitted he is proud of his spreadsheet.
Mary: Oh, Roger, you don't know how proud he is. His face just lights up. Yeah. He's very proud of it.
Roger: You are a circle.
You think in a circle and are much more creative and strategic. He articulated, and you've articulated more around it, that that's a challenge for both of you.
Mary: Huge challenge. I can't stand it. Let me tell you, when he wants to sit down and look at that spreadsheet, it's all I can do, I have to look at the spreadsheet.
My mind doesn't think that way. So yeah, that's a huge challenge.
Roger: So, you just essentially tune it out and put up with it.
Mary: It's an art. Yeah, that's exactly right. I grab a glass of wine and I said, okay, and we open up the spreadsheet and it's not my number. I think, and he may have said this. He's had that spreadsheet or a form thereof for his whole life. So, he's been living in that spreadsheet forever and he looks at it every single night.
Then you take me and I am very, like I said, very creative. Very, a spreadsheet is just, it kills my soul. So, we have to sit down together and I don't want to insult him because it is, I think you've seen it, it is amazing.
Roger: I haven't seen it yet.
It's not good or bad. It's just a different flavor of a person.
Mary: But the thing is, if you don't live, if you don't follow the guidelines, if you say you're going to spend this much, if you have a budget, but you don't stay in the budget, it's useless. Because we just bought a house, haven't stayed in the budget, because we've needed things. You add on top of that then if I’m looking at it and the numbers aren't correct because we didn't spend within our limits or what have you then it makes me dislike the spreadsheet even more I mean, it's terrible. I feel so bad about excel and spreadsheets.
Roger: Was that something you brought in? Or was it just because of all of the conversations that you've had related to this specific spreadsheet and how much he has joy in it? Did you bring this in?
Mary: Well, I mean, when I first met him, I can't remember. I mean, it wasn't on the first date, although I am surprised that he did not bring out the spreadsheet on that dinner date, but no, I'm sorry if he, but I can't remember when he brought out this spreadsheet and at the time I was impressed because I've never, listen, I don't make a grocery list. I literally don't make lists, and so I've never sat down and done a budget. I just know in my head what I need to do. So, it was very impressive, but then it was impressive until we had to combine income. Then I became a part of a spreadsheet that I wasn't in ownership of, right?
Then it sorts of felt more to me. I have this conversation, obviously he'll hear this and I'll have this conversation with him as I'm talking to you. I understand a little better why I feel the way I feel about it, it's helping me to understand that, but it is his spreadsheet. It makes me start to feel like he's in control of our finances, and I am not, because I don't have a similar tool, if you will, to sit down and share with him and say, well, here's my budget and here's my idea of what our life would look like financially.
I don't have that and I won't have that. That's just not who I am. I'm a talker if you can't tell. So, when he's going through his spreadsheet, I don't feel a part of our finances. I feel like he's controlling our finances and I don't have a lot of say, which is not necessarily true, but that's how it makes me feel.
Roger: It makes total sense to me. That makes total sense to me. And so, this is a situation where you both love each other. You want the same things. There's just this one big hairball that we're going to work through, not untangling, but hopefully helping giving you some perspective.
Ultimately, both of you will likely have to meet in the middle in some places, right?
Mary: Yeah, I think we're, yeah, we definitely, I mean, at 56, if you don't know that you have to meet in the middle, well, I don't know what to say. I mean, we always have to meet everybody in the middle of where they are. I think if we can take some of the emotional pieces and this is really, even this evening talking has helped me as I'm sharing with you our story, I'm understanding why some of the feelings I'm having, you know, people are in fear, they don't feel like they're in control. I mean, there's different reasons why you feel bad, right? Those feelings can be there's something that we can work with those feelings.
Roger: I'm honored that you're willing to go on this journey with me, in this way and I challenged you about doing it in this forum. I remember you said yeah, but we got to figure this out and there's a lot of other people that are dealing with the same thing. So, if this can help That would be awesome.
Thank you for that.
Mary: Well, we appreciate it. I appreciate it and to your point I know that there have to be other people that are going through this. It's definitely going to help us. But if sharing this story helps other people, then all the better, right? All the better.
BRING IT ON WITH KEVIN LYLES
Roger: Now it's time for the Rock Life segment.
Today, we're going to talk about passion and purpose in retirement, and to help us do that, as always, is coach of the Rock Retirement Club, Kevin "Gramps" Lyles. Kevin, how are you doing?
Kevin: I'm doing great, Roger.
Roger: What silly name are you going to have now that you're a grandfather?
Kevin: I'm going to be Papa. I like it. Papa Kev.
Roger: So, this is maybe part of your purpose now that you have your first grandchild. What are we going to talk about when it comes to purpose and passion?
Kevin: Well, I wanted to talk today about unretirement. Have you heard that term?
Roger: Probably, but not recently. What do you mean by unretirement?
Kevin: I just came across this term. I was listening to a Wes Moss Retire Sooner podcast and he used it, but it's a pretty new phenomenon. It's a lot of people who retired during COVID are now going back to work and they changed their minds basically on retirement, or maybe things aren't working out like they thought it was.
I just thought let's talk a little bit about this. Is it okay once you've “retired” to go back to work? What do you think?
Roger: Are we talking about going back to full time work?
Kevin: We're talking about going back in any capacity. I think most people are probably going back part time but not all of them. Some are going back to their original career.
The reasons people are citing for this are loneliness you know, they miss having a community around them, boredom, which I don't understand, and financial reasons, obviously, you know, with all the inflation we've had, I think some people are getting concerned about that.
So, people are going back to work.
Roger: I probably would add another reason that isn't as evident because I've definitely seen people go back to work a lot in some capacity whether is Ace Hardware or consulting back with their company. I think another reason is, one of my favorite words is agency. It just feels good to have a little bit of money coming in that is outside the plan, so to speak.
Kevin: Yeah. To me, I think the big reason I think of is usefulness. It's remaining useful. I think a lot of people retire and they feel like they're not as useful as they used to be. They developed a lot of skills over their careers that they want to keep putting to use. So, I think that's a lot of it, too, probably.
Roger: It is sort of a weird thing where you retire when you're almost at the top of your game, whatever game that is, project manager, attorney, et cetera, right? A lot of wisdom there.
Kevin: Yeah. It was tough for me to give up my legal career. You put a lot of effort into it. You get to however high up you get and then you quit.
That was a big deal. No doubt. I haven't regretted it, but it was a big deal.
Roger: When you un-retire, I've had this discussion with people, Kevin, so I'm curious, when you un-retire, and you sort of did this, although in terms of becoming a retirement coach and working with the club and individuals, you had a very lucrative career as an attorney, and I've had people struggle with, I'm earning a lot less money, why don't I just go back to my real work?
Kevin: Yeah, that didn't happen with me, but I can certainly understand it. What I had to get through was the change in mindset. You're not doing this for the money.
Now, I will tell you, Roger, I don't consider what I'm doing now to be un-retired. Mentally, I'm still fully retired. I describe it as my passion project.
I'm not trying to replace work. I'm just trying to do something that will allow me to give back and to help others. That's why I'm doing it. But you could quibble and say, well, you're working. That is a part time job. If you will. I just don't consider it a job because I don't have to show up. I don't have to do anything I don't want to do, so that for me takes it out of the work category.
Roger: That makes sense. That makes sense. This is more of David Brooks would call your second mountain, your community and your service, and so unretirement is more like going back to work and having some obligations time wise.
Kevin: I think so. To me, that's the key to making unretirement work, if you will.
I don't like it if the reason you're going back and doing it is just because you sort of failed at your try at retirement, you didn't plan well enough. You didn't have other things you wanted to do. I like it if, if you're doing something you really like. Carl Richards has a thing that says stop doing list and a keep doing list about your job.
What are the things you want to keep doing? What do you stop doing? And use those lists to decide on what you're going to do next. I sort of like that approach. If you can reduce the stress in your life, if you can maintain a good work life balance and still be unretired, then I'm all for it as a coach.
Roger: I was actually just thinking of an example as you were talking, Kevin, not that I wasn't listening to you, by the way, I have a client, his unretirement is he assembles things in Lowe's, I think it was Lowe's. He goes in, you know, maybe 15, 20 hours a week, and he just sits in the back room, assembling grills and play sets and lawnmowers, and he loves to tinker. So, this just gives him the chance to just go make a little coin, get out of the house. and tinker and actually follow those instructions that you and I throw out.
Kevin: He's a unicorn. He enjoys doing what the rest of us despise, which is putting things together with those lousy instructions, the screws and the nuts in the little plastic thermofoil pouches.
Roger: Well, I'm glad God makes those people.
Kevin: Absolutely.
Roger: I don't have to do those things, but I guess that would be an example. I mean, I don't know what he gets paid at the home improvement store, but it serves its purpose and gives him some fun money.
Kevin: Exactly. The money is always nice. The community is even better from a retirement standpoint. You know, we talked about loneliness and boredom. You won't be lonely or bored. If you're working with people, you enjoy being with them every day.
I think that's the key to figure out why you are doing it? Is it identity? You've lost your identity once you stopped work, you're lonely, you're bored, figure out what you're doing and then figure out how to fill that void.
Then I'm all for it.
Roger: So, here's a question when it comes to unretirement, cause it could get you moving forward again.
Let's say you've retired and you haven't really figured out what you're going to do with your day, whether it's hobby wise or life wise. When should you decide, oh, maybe I should explore something like this, or should I just go try to figure this out?
I just have to keep trying to figure out my hobbies and purpose, versus maybe I should go unretire.
Kevin: Yeah, we talk about the different phases of retirement. I think you need to get through that quote honeymoon period, but most of us don't struggle through that period. Most retirees, the vast majority, love that period. You're just sort of relaxing. You’re unwinding. But after you've been through that, give it a few months to try to figure it out, make sure it's what you want to do.
I don't want to see someone rushing back into their career when maybe just adding some other activities, some more human interactions into their day-to-day life could help.
One thing I believe is, it's not a failure if you un-retire. Don't consider it that. A lot of people do. Just make sure you're doing it for the right reasons and you're adding to your life. Also, talk to your spouse or your significant other. I know of couples who have, one's retired and the other's planning on, okay, now we're going to go. Then he goes back to work and it sort of screws everything up. So, make sure you're both on the same page. I think it's important.
Roger: Yeah. It's a balance, isn't it? It's sort of like if you're trying to dip your toe into the lake or the ocean, you run out and you're like, Ooh, it's cold and you run back.
Running back is essentially going back to what is safe, which is the shore or your work, because you're comfortable there. There's a balance of, should I just keep running into the ocean or when do I need to have a raft to sort of find that balance?
Kevin: Yeah. Hopefully it's a better work life balance than you had during your primary career.
I think going back full time and where I know people who have done it that get themselves into trouble is starting a new business because people just tend to throw themselves 100 percent into a new business. Then they're just as stressed out as they were before. They're probably not making much money if it's a startup and it just becomes frustrating.
Make sure you go into it with the right expectations about how much time you're going to devote to it.
Roger: Yeah. Starting a business is a whole other discussion. An important one, because that's definitely an aspiration for some.
Kevin: Oh, one more thing on the financial. We talked about finance.
If you've started collecting social security and you're younger than full retirement age, which for most of us now is 67, then you probably want to delay. Pause the social security because you'll have the offset with the retirement earnings test anyway, and lose, what is it? One for every two dollars. Just go ahead and delay your social security, put it on pause and let it keep building.
That's just a financial tip if you do decide to go back to work, a lot of people jump in and then they realize. Well, they just reduced my social security benefit. Why did I do it?
Roger: Yeah, what's the benefit of that? Good point. All right, Kevin. Thanks. We'll see you next time.
TODAY’S SMART SPRINT SEGMENT
On your marks, get set,
Now it's time to set a smart sprint you can take in the next seven days to not just rock retirement but rock life.
Okay in the next seven days, I want you to have your kickoff retirement planning meeting, financial planning meeting for 2024.
Now in our 6-Shot Saturday email, I'm going to share the agenda that we work through in guided agile retirement management, which is something that we do in the rock retirement club as a club where we have an agenda and then we have meetups talking about the agenda to help guide people having their own meeting.
I'm going to share that agenda with you in our 6-Shot Saturday email to give you at least some scaffolding to navigate a meeting so you can make sure it's productive. So, you can feel like you're taking control and working intentionally in 2024.
If you're not. Signed up for our 6-Shot Saturday email. Well, you can go to rogerwhitney.com. This is our weekly email. If you like the podcast, you're going to love the email because this is where we share resources that we talk about on the show. It's where you can reply back and ask questions that we can potentially answer on the show or interact and give feedback.
That's your sprint for these next seven days is get an agenda, whether it's the one that we share or one that you have set a time with yourself or with your spouse or your partner and work through setting yourself up for a great 2024.
CONCLUSION
Now, next month in February, it's hard to believe we're already talking about February 2024. The theme of that month is going to be FIRE, Financially Independent Retire Early, which is a massive movement, mainly with 20, 30, 40-year-olds, which has a lot of great aspects about it. We're going to talk about what it is, dissect it, what are the advantages of thinking with that mindset, and what are some of the things to watch out for.
I'm excited about that, and I'm always excited to hang out with you. Have a wonderful week, and we'll chat, well, next Wednesday.
The opinions voiced in this podcast are for general information only, and not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual. All performance references are historical and do not guarantee future results. All indices are unmanaged and cannot be invested in directly. Make sure you consult your legal, tax, or financial advisor before making any decisions.